I STRONGLY agree with that! I think it's horrible how we test things on animals first before ourselves! Especially makeup! They put nailpolish in rabbits' eyes to see if they go blind or not! How horrible is that?!? I don't understand how people can do that!

There's something else too -- why do vegans not like cheese? I mean it's just milk with Rennet in it... if you get milk from a farmer who keeps his cows happy and outside all the time than the cow isn't hurt. My mum for example makes her own organic cheese and yoguhrt. there can't be any harm in that...can there...???

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Feel the fear....and do it anyway!

It's just because vegans don't like to drink milk, which is yes, in cheese. And unfortunately, it's really hard to find the kind of cheese and milk that you mentioned in North America. Most of the stuff is mass-produced, brimming with preservatives, few people take the time to make it from scratch like that.

I'm certainly not saying that cheese or milk is BAD and I'm afraid that I have no idea what the dairy industry is like in NZ...but in North America...it's not too pretty.

Milk is a tricky subject. Some say that there is no cruelty in it, the animals aren't killed or harmed...some say that it has health benefits, but most vegans have mixed opinions about it. Some say that the human body absolutely has no need for it...we get the milk we need from our own species--our mothers-- when we are babies...and it puts the cows through a lot of strain being pregnant continually so that there is the continual flow of milk.....and when there is the continual pregnancies, then that of course means continually more calves coming out, which means a whole lot of baby cows about...and most of them just get killed for meat or killed to get rid of them....what in the world would a dairy industry need male calves for? They're just dead weight. So the male calves, since they can't get pregnant or produce milk, are either shipped away to the meat industry or kept somewhere to breed, so that the female cows get pregnant, produce milk....

Anyway, that's what happens in the big dairy businesses of North America. We like the taste of milk and seize the opportunity the satistfy our desires and make money. However, being forced to breed and become pregnant and then being sucked of all milk in their bodies sounds very stressful for them....that's a very delicate process that we are trying to speed up...and then to go through the same process and cycle again and again and again...I would certainly not appreciate someone constantly making me pregnant so that they can suck the milk out of me, over and over again...probably not even knowing where my children are....though they too and trapped in this endless cycle to satisfy human desires...and the dairy industry justifies itself in the eyes of society by saying, "It's good for you." But it's not good for you.
"No species naturally drinks millk beyond the age of weaning, and no species would naturally drink the milk of a different species. For humans, drinking cow's milk has been linked to heart disease, some types of cancer, diabetes, and even osteoporosis, the very disease that the dairy industry claims it's products are supposed to prevent! The high animal-protein content of milk actually causes calcium to be leached from the body. According to a Harvard Medical School analysis of the evidence, milk does not protect against osteoporosis; the study found that countries with low calcium intake (just 300mg/day) tend to have lower incidence of hip fractures (an indication of osteoporosis) than do the countries with higher calcium-consumption rates. You can get all the calcium you need from the plant world--brocolli, beans, many leafy green vegetables, almonds, soy mlk, tofu, and calcium-fortifyed organge juice are all good sources." -Eating for Life magazine

Now...organic farms. Very different. Indeed, the cows are able to roam where they wish, they live pretty free lives, they are not harmed or killed, they breed as they wish and we just take some of the extra milk. Surely it doesn't sound like there is any harm in it for the cows.

So I guess that the problem that vegans have is, well, our bodies just don't need nor probably want the stuff! The forces of nature, in the circle of life, created milk in the mother’s body for her babies to drink to help get them started. Just because we like the taste of the milk doesn’t mean that we suddenly have permission to take it, whenever we want, from wherever we want. Humans, of course, are certainly going against the forces of nature and the circle of life in so many ways. And this is another major one, I think. A main portion of what we eat is milk from an entirely different species. Of course our bodies adapt to that, as they adapt to anything, but it is leading us further and further away from being One with the earth, from living in complete harmony with the forces of nature. As the magazine stated, we aren’t meant, according to the laws of nature, to drink milk beyond the age of weaning, and certainly not the milk of a different species.
I’m glad that you are open to this Joy, I hope that this helps.
As a vegan, more than trying to avoid cruelty to animals, I am trying to do what’s best for my body, and more than that: I am trying to connect myself with this beautiful earth. Eating habits are a wonderful starting point.

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_{Team JACOB. Because real men don't sparkle.}

Um...I've been thinking...and...I would really like to become a vegan again but last time (another reason why I stopped being vegan) i became really sick because i didn't get the vitamins that were in the meat. I wanna start being a vegan again next month but mum said to ask you first on what you eat and all to keep yourself healthy, so i won't get sick again. Could you help me with that...? Please...?

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Feel the fear....and do it anyway!

The milk we get from the farmer is only when one of his cows has (either) lost her calf and he has to keep milking her or her udder will blow up and get infected because the milk will go sour because there is no calf to drink it. So he milks her until she's out of milk, or when she's ready to be weaned. OR he milks when he has a cow who has too much milk and the calf can't drink it all, so he milks her and instead of throwing the milk away he sells it cheaply or drinks it himself. I know that there is no harm in that, besides we don't drink milk often... I don't anyway. But I'll tell you one thing; the fresh milk is SO much nicer and healthier than the one you buy in the shop because he (the farmer) doesn't stuff his cows full of chemicals. He only uses chemicals if he REALLY needs to.

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Feel the fear....and do it anyway!

i agree.

I never liked the vegan alternatives to non-vegan food, cept Soy-milk, yum.

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Omnia Mutantur Nihil interit: "all things change, nothing dies"

"Soul receives from soul that knowledge, therefore not by book nor from tongue. If knowledge of mysteries come after emptiness of mind, that is illumination of heart."
-Rumi

When are they gonna put Human milk and cheese on the shelves? That would make more sense, eh?

Though its for growth, I dont know why an adult would drink or eat it.
And people wonder why there is so much osteoporosis and cancer.

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Omnia Mutantur Nihil interit: "all things change, nothing dies"

"Soul receives from soul that knowledge, therefore not by book nor from tongue. If knowledge of mysteries come after emptiness of mind, that is illumination of heart."
-Rumi

Yes, I don't really see why we need to try to replicate foods from the Standard (north) American Diet (SAD diet ^^). It just ends up tasting...all messed up.
Yup, except soy milk. Man, that's good.

Hm, but I've had a vegan lasagna once....it was quite delicious...didn't taste much different...

We don't realize just how emotionally connected we are to our food. The thought of giving up milk sounds depressing, so they make soy milks. The thought of life without cheese sounds unbearable, hense the vegan 'cheese'.

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_{Team JACOB. Because real men don't sparkle.}

No kidding.

We're in a sea of brainwashed fools, Archaia.

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_{Team JACOB. Because real men don't sparkle.}

Ya. When I gave up animal products, at first I thought that no milk was hardest, but after a short time I realized, its really disgusting to me. Cheese is spoiled milk, and dairy is food for calves and I am robbing children of their nourishment, unacceptable!.

Its amazing what alternatives they have, I mean some of them arent too good for you in the amounts that normal dairy is consumed. Like I just discovered Silk Soy Whip, mock whip cream!?

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Omnia Mutantur Nihil interit: "all things change, nothing dies"

"Soul receives from soul that knowledge, therefore not by book nor from tongue. If knowledge of mysteries come after emptiness of mind, that is illumination of heart."
-Rumi